Q&A: Jess Ho on Melbourne Past and Present, Their 2023 Travelogue, and Releasing Their First Book
Bureau spoke to the author and freelance writer about authordom, social media, banh mi, bars and baking.
There are tastemakers in the Melbourne food bubble, from whom a single Instagram tag or Substack shout-out can make or break a business. They are important in the PR cycle of the hospitality industry, but ultimately, are just messengers. Today’s Q&A guest, author Jess Ho, is more of an agenda setter; they write with a fierce passion, and are beholden to no one.
Jess has become one of the most respected voices in the industry, speaking courageously about their experiences in the industry, and also the childhood that informed their 2022 memoir Raised By Wolves. Jess spoke to us about the book, their experiences in the Melbourne hospitality scene, 2023’s highlights, and what’s to come in 2024.
Congratulations on Raised By Wolves; it’s a deeply moving story. They say an author puts the entirety of their lived experience into their first book. How does it feel now that you’re a published author, with the book being so well received? Has there been a catharsis?
Thank you. It's a strange feeling in that it doesn't really feel like an accomplishment because I've been writing for so long, it's just having something published in a different format. I know it sounds crazy, but it feels more like a task that has been ticked off the to-do list. It's great that the book was so well received because there is always that sense of impending doom before anything I've worked on goes live, whether it be an article, a podcast, a venue or a book. Sadly, there hasn't been a catharsis, just some stirring of the pot. I think I'd feel differently if the unsustainable and toxic practices that permeate the industry had been resolved as a consequence of the book, but we all know that is never going to happen. I am certainly not influential enough.
You came to prominence in the industry through your role at Chin Chin, and your pioneering social media presence at the onset of Twitter. How do you reflect on this era now?
I think back in those days, it was a lot easier to break through if you had a voice because there was a lot of trial and error, and people not really understanding the power of social media. These days, social media has become a business and a lot of that business just creates noise. But, in understanding the power of social media, I think we've ruined it by always appealing to the lowest common denominator. I remember watching Nathan Barley back in 2005 and thinking god, I hope that's not going to happen, but it did. I have, fatefully, become Dan Ashcroft.
In general, how do you see the evolution of restaurant PR and social media since your time at Lucas? It’s become a fraught space, and influencer culture has become one of the biggest irritants to hospitality operators. Are there some examples of operators doing it well?
To be honest, it is hard for me to say who is doing social media well. When it boils down to it, only the venue can gauge whether or not they're doing a good job because there has to be a point to it. Do you want more bums on seats? Are you trying to get international recognition? Do you want to update your existing customers about daily specials? What is the tone, perspective and demographic you're trying to hit? Without understanding the motivations, the strategy and looking at the data, I can't give you this answer. What I can say is, if you're on social media as a business without considering these things, you are not doing it well.
You’re not only a lauded food writer and host, but the former Time Out Food & Drink editor; I can’t imagine there’s a person more burdened by constant requests for restaurant recommendations than Jess Ho. Do you like this responsibility? What are some of your default go-to recommendations that continue to go under the radar?
It depends on my mood and who is asking (and how). If people know me, they know to provide a brief and ask politely, whereas people who see me as some gremlin who lives in their phone approach me with a lot of entitlement. The thing that annoys me is when I spend a lot of time helping someone and they end up at some shitty, overhyped place anyways and then message me about how bad it was. Yes, of course, it was bad, that's why I didn't tell you to go there.
I love neighbourhood joints that are low-key and focused. Restaurants like Tom Toon, Mr Lee's and Jang Go Mama will always be top tier to me, but I also know why they would not appeal to everyone. I probably have hundreds of restaurants like this that I could name, and that's where you'll usually find me instead of at well-publicised venues.
In your podcast Bad Taste, you spoke about the price of banh mi and the underlying cultural connotations associated, an issue that has resurfaced after this post from Ca Com. Embarrassingly, I’ve been guilty of questioning banh mi prices in the past as well, and there is definitely a racial undertone about the use of terms like “cheap” in food culture. How have you seen this issue develop since the pod? How can we be better as a city at embracing price parity for Asian food?
Sadly, I don't think we have developed as a society since the pod. To assume that I influenced any sort of cultural change would be delusional and I think the audience it resonated with is already the converted. I have a point of not reading comments, but as I was working in a team, we had to monitor them. When that episode dropped all the comments were like, 'It shouldn't cost more than $6,' 'Anyone charging more than x dollars is a criminal', and that's not even the racist comments.
I think people are more vocal about the issue around BIPOC labour these days, but we still haven't solved the problem. Aside from racism, there are other issues at play like the fact that the world is becoming more expensive and people not wanting to pay what things are worth, and upward mobility within certain communities and their attitudes around value. The price of food, let alone the price of ethnic food, is burdened with multiple issues, which means there is no single solution. But, understanding food systems, the price of doing business and how much things cost, is a good place to start.
On that topic, you documented some pretty incredible dining experiences across your travels in 2023. What were some of your standout dishes of your time in Vietnam, and what’s an underrepresented Vietnamese dish you’d love to see more of in Melbourne?
I pretty much think anything that isn't phở is insanely underrepresented. I am a noodle soup slut and I will eat a bowl rain, hail, shine, monsoon, heatwave, you name it. When I was in Hanoi, I became obsessed with canh bún. If you Google it, the search results will say that it is similar to bún riêu (another grossly underrated dish), but what I ate wasn't. The bowls I had were built on a mound of blanched water spinach with a scant, pork-based broth, topped with thick, round rice noodles, crab paste, fried shallots, lard chips and pork loaf (one of the many varieties available in Hanoi). I'd dress my bowl with pickled garlic and chilli oil and sweat through all my clothes. While I have found canh bún in Melbourne, it's nothing like what I ate in Hanoi, so I guess I'm going back just for a bowl of noodles.
Likewise, you shared some amazing meals from your time in Japan, and, memorably, a trip to a pig cafe. Japan remains such a spiritual and alluring destination for food lovers; how would you describe the hallmarks and ethos of Japanese dining? What was the most memorable dining experience of your trip?
I think we're all familiar enough with Japanese cuisine to know that everything is in the pursuit of perfection, and everyone's idea of perfection is subjective. It's finding the person with the same palate and hierarchy of importance as you to eat from. The most memorable meal would have been at Unatetsu in Tokyo. While the chef doesn't get the best quality eel, the way he treats and prepares it makes it the most delicious, and the venue was packed with regulars who worship at the feet of the chef. I ate through all the different parts of the eel like the heart, liver and dorsal fin, grilled over binchotan and dressed in different ways. The chef also has great relationships with sake brewers so I was able to taste rare sakes (even for Japan) that I wouldn't have been able to find anywhere else.
You’re also a former venue owner; your beloved wine bar Smalls was very influential on the current cadre or bars across Melbourne. What, to you, makes a good bar?
For me, a good bar is a place I want to drink at. While that sounds like a no-brainer, I appreciate good drinks that say something about the place I'm at, a list that is ever-evolving, great hospitality (this means knowing when someone wants to talk and when they want to be left alone) and a space where I can make a fool of myself at and still feel safe. You'd be surprised at how many places don't fill this brief.
Ardent followers to your Instagram will know that you’re a fanatical baker. It feels like Melbourne has undergone a baking revolution in the past decade; our city is as bread-obsessed as any in the world. When you’re not baking at home, what are some of your go-to bakeries?
To be honest, I bake and cook so much at home, that if I bought baked goods, I'd have to harass my friends to help me eat the haul. I get on a roll where I want to perfect one thing, whether it be a type of bread, pizza, fillo, or viennoiserie that I obsessively make it until my kitchen is bursting and my freezer is stacked. On the odd occasion I do go out, I love Small Batch and Agathé for pastries. I also can't resist a canelé and I am still on the hunt for the perfect one in Melbourne.
How are you feeling heading into 2024? Publishing your debut book is such a milestone. Is it challenging to follow it up? What else do you hope this year holds for you?
Aha! The dreaded question. I'm the type of person who doesn't talk about what they're doing until it's about to be released into the world because I've been burnt too many times at the last moment. This is where you read between the lines, make a lot of assumptions and I knowingly raise my eyebrow in response, but give you nothing. Hopefully, this year is a lot slower for me. I am, unsurprisingly, burnt out.
Finally, what are some of the themes and voices that you think will influence the Melbourne dining scene in 2024?
I am way too cynical to answer this question the way you want. Hahahaha.
Jess’s debut book Raised By Wolves is available in audiobook format at this link for 70% for a limited time.
Download all of the episodes of Bad Taste here.
You can also subscribe to their hilarious Substack here, and reach them at thatjessho@gmail.com for all freelance writing and editing requirements.